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Fantasy » alt.fan.pratchett » [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready
| [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278867] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 14:36 |
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There's one thing that's been annoying me above all else in
the recent "gutter"-threads; the use of that word.
The people who are advocating less flirting and innuendo say
we should get out of the gutter, and everyone else at most
talks about being happy in the gutter.
If you think the things you talk about are fine, stop
placing yourself in this mythical gutter, it's self
deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
If you think that those "mainstream" sexual values that say
it shouldn't be talked about, that it's "dirty" or whatever,
are wrong - don't buy into them.
I have flirted, implied, innuendoed and probably even been
explicit - or at least explicit-ish here, but I have _never_
considered myself in "the gutter", nor do I think that of
anyone else here.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278879 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 15:12 |
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Graycat wrote:
> There's one thing that's been annoying me above all else in
> the recent "gutter"-threads; the use of that word.
I'm gutted.
> The people who are advocating less flirting and innuendo say
> we should get out of the gutter, and everyone else at most
> talks about being happy in the gutter.
I would have said that the latter was a reaction to the former, had I
not seen people happily declare themselves to be "in the gutter" or
aspiring to get /up/ to that level of sophistication for years here.
> I have flirted, implied, innuendoed and probably even been
> explicit - or at least explicit-ish here, but I have _never_
> considered myself in "the gutter", nor do I think that of
> anyone else here.
You do know there are people who'll see that as a challenge, right?
Glod, I hope I'm wrong about that...
At the end of the day, it's just a shorthand label for sexually oriented
flirting and innuendo, which is understood by people on both sides of
the debate. Yes, it is a degrading term, as it implies that sort of
thing is dirty and worthless, but if it's an accepted term..?
I see your point, though. I don't think that sort of thing is dirty in
any way - quite the opposite, actually. A well crafted innuendo can be
quite funny, IMO. The problem is the amount of not so well crafted
ones. We've been seeing a lot of run-of-the-mill innuendos stamped with
"Made in China" on their plastic bottoms.
Those arguably deserve to be in the gutter, as they're not worth
keeping, but afp would look nicer if they were put in the bin instead.
Let's discard those trashy innuendos before they're posted, and work at
making the finely crafted innuendos the afficionados among us can
appreciate.
If it's an "obvious" innuendo, or one that's been left very available
from a previous post, there's no craftsmanship. Anyone can come up
with, say:
} Sorry, but that's one of my buttons you're pressing.
That's the problem right there; you shouldn't press the button, but rub
it.
Everybody who appreciates innuendos could see that one coming. No
originality, no personal flair or style.
So, let's hear what labels people can come up with to describe the
high-quality innuendos we deserve. A term that encompasses the
sophistication and wittiness, the clever allusions and cunning lingual
puns. How about one of these?
The Royal box - whence little princes come.
Caesar's Palace - "Veni, vidi, vim" (I came, I saw, I cleaned up after
myself)
Promenade - where we come for our daily exercise.
Other suggestions?
Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278888 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 15:33 |
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On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:12:44 +0100, "Orjan Westin"
<nospam [at] cunobaros.com> jotted down:
>Graycat wrote:
>> The people who are advocating less flirting and innuendo say
>> we should get out of the gutter, and everyone else at most
>> talks about being happy in the gutter.
>
>I would have said that the latter was a reaction to the former, had I
>not seen people happily declare themselves to be "in the gutter" or
>aspiring to get /up/ to that level of sophistication for years here.
I know that - and kidding around in one thing, but I'f
you're trying to defend your position, while simultaneously
using vocabulary that implies deep down you think the other
side is right...that's something else.
>> I have flirted, implied, innuendoed and probably even been
>> explicit - or at least explicit-ish here, but I have _never_
>> considered myself in "the gutter", nor do I think that of
>> anyone else here.
>
>You do know there are people who'll see that as a challenge, right?
>Glod, I hope I'm wrong about that...
Yes, I do know that.
>At the end of the day, it's just a shorthand label for sexually oriented
>flirting and innuendo, which is understood by people on both sides of
>the debate. Yes, it is a degrading term, as it implies that sort of
>thing is dirty and worthless, but if it's an accepted term..?
Thing is, if you say something often enough, you start
believing it - that's why you should never talk down to
yourself.
>I see your point, though. I don't think that sort of thing is dirty in
>any way - quite the opposite, actually. A well crafted innuendo can be
>quite funny, IMO. The problem is the amount of not so well crafted
>ones. We've been seeing a lot of run-of-the-mill innuendos stamped with
>"Made in China" on their plastic bottoms.
Yes, I agree fully with that. Problem is "gutter" implies
dirtyness, lowness, being in the trash-channel of life and
is, imo, tied ti the idea of sex as being dirty - it taints
_all_ the innuendo-y jokes, not just the bad ones. Just call
them "crap jokes" instead and you loose all the baggage.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278889 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 15:35 |
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Orjan Westin said:
> So, let's hear what labels people can come up with to describe the
> high-quality innuendos we deserve. A term that encompasses the
> sophistication and wittiness, the clever allusions and cunning lingual
> puns.
That one, right there, was truly dreadful. But it was cunning, and that made
all the difference.
(Incidentally, I think it was first used by Deep Purple, in - er - "Knocking
at your Back Door", I believe, from "Perfect Strangers".)
--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278897 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 15:49 |
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Orjan Westin wrote:
>
> I see your point, though. I don't think that sort of thing is dirty in
> any way - quite the opposite, actually. A well crafted innuendo can be
> quite funny, IMO. The problem is the amount of not so well crafted
> ones. We've been seeing a lot of run-of-the-mill innuendos stamped with
> "Made in China" on their plastic bottoms.
Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278904 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 16:24 |
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In article <vDWgg.1521$YI3.688 [at] amstwist00>, Torak generously decided to
share with us..
> Orjan Westin wrote:
> >
> > I see your point, though. I don't think that sort of thing is dirty in
> > any way - quite the opposite, actually. A well crafted innuendo can be
> > quite funny, IMO. The problem is the amount of not so well crafted
> > ones. We've been seeing a lot of run-of-the-mill innuendos stamped with
> > "Made in China" on their plastic bottoms.
>
> Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
A useful wipe-clean surface in that area might be seen as a good
thing?..
Gid
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278915 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 17:09 |
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Graycat <rosen.elin [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> There's one thing that's been annoying me above all else in
> the recent "gutter"-threads; the use of that word.
>
> The people who are advocating less flirting and innuendo say
> we should get out of the gutter, and everyone else at most
> talks about being happy in the gutter.
>
> If you think the things you talk about are fine, stop
> placing yourself in this mythical gutter, it's self
> deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
If you *know* it's self-deprecating, and still your choice, it's hardly
spineless.
And honestly, what's it to ya?
--
*Art
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278918 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 17:26 |
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Gid Holyoake wrote:
> In article <vDWgg.1521$YI3.688 [at] amstwist00>, Torak generously decided to
> share with us..
>
>
>>Orjan Westin wrote:
>>
>>>I see your point, though. I don't think that sort of thing is dirty in
>>>any way - quite the opposite, actually. A well crafted innuendo can be
>>>quite funny, IMO. The problem is the amount of not so well crafted
>>>ones. We've been seeing a lot of run-of-the-mill innuendos stamped with
>>>"Made in China" on their plastic bottoms.
>>
>>Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
>
>
> A useful wipe-clean surface in that area might be seen as a good
> thing?..
>
> Gid
>
Skin's not that hard to wipe clean.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278920 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 17:29 |
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peachy ashie passion wrote:
> Gid Holyoake wrote:
>
>> In article <vDWgg.1521$YI3.688 [at] amstwist00>, Torak generously decided
>> to share with us..
>>
>>> Orjan Westin wrote:
>>>
>>>> We've been seeing a lot of
>>>> run-of-the-mill innuendos stamped with "Made in China" on their
>>>> plastic bottoms.
>>>
>>> Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
>>
>> A useful wipe-clean surface in that area might be seen as a good
>> thing?..
>
> Skin's not that hard to wipe clean.
Hairy skin, OTOH...
Oh, sorry, wrong thread.
Now, where's that quote the ppint. sometimes has in its sig? There's a
refutation of that assertion right here.
Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278926 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 17:47 |
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Arthur Hagen wrote:
> Graycat <rosen.elin [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>> There's one thing that's been annoying me above all else in
>> the recent "gutter"-threads; the use of that word.
>>
>> The people who are advocating less flirting and innuendo say
>> we should get out of the gutter, and everyone else at most
>> talks about being happy in the gutter.
>>
>> If you think the things you talk about are fine, stop
>> placing yourself in this mythical gutter, it's self
>> deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
>
> If you *know* it's self-deprecating, and still your choice, it's
> hardly spineless.
Arguably, it's an attempt to refuse responsibility for something by
claiming to be an outsider and non-conformistic. Like some people are
fond of telling their friend Jamal "You know I'm bad".
> And honestly, what's it to ya?
I think it's an observation and expression of opinion. We're still
allowed those, right?
Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278935 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 18:08 |
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Orjan Westin wrote:
> peachy ashie passion wrote:
>>Gid Holyoake wrote:
>>>In article <vDWgg.1521$YI3.688 [at] amstwist00>, Torak generously decided
>>>>Orjan Westin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>We've been seeing a lot of
>>>>>run-of-the-mill innuendos stamped with "Made in China" on their
>>>>>plastic bottoms.
>>>>
>>>>Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
>>>
>>>A useful wipe-clean surface in that area might be seen as a good
>>>thing?..
>>
>> Skin's not that hard to wipe clean.
>
> Hairy skin, OTOH...
I'm told you can get pink disc sanders for that very purpose...
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278939 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 18:22 |
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Orjan Westin <nospam [at] cunobaros.com> wrote:
> Arthur Hagen wrote:
>> Graycat <rosen.elin [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> If you think the things you talk about are fine, stop
>>> placing yourself in this mythical gutter, it's self
>>> deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
>>
>> If you *know* it's self-deprecating, and still your choice, it's
>> hardly spineless.
>
> Arguably, it's an attempt to refuse responsibility for something by
> claiming to be an outsider and non-conformistic. Like some people are
> fond of telling their friend Jamal "You know I'm bad".
"Jamal"? Elucidate, please.
>> And honestly, what's it to ya?
>
> I think it's an observation and expression of opinion. We're still
> allowed those, right?
Whenever it's imposing the will of the poster on what others should or
shouldn't say, I will most certainly object.
Non serviam.
--
*Art
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278959 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 19:58 |
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Torak <perry_awm [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> Orjan Westin wrote:
> >
> > I see your point, though. I don't think that sort of thing is dirty in
> > any way - quite the opposite, actually. A well crafted innuendo can be
> > quite funny, IMO. The problem is the amount of not so well crafted
> > ones. We've been seeing a lot of run-of-the-mill innuendos stamped with
> > "Made in China" on their plastic bottoms.
>
> Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
To use as a spare when the original has been screwed off?
Richard
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278963 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 20:07 |
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Arthur Hagen wrote:
> Orjan Westin <nospam [at] cunobaros.com> wrote:
>>
>> Arguably, it's an attempt to refuse responsibility for something by
>> claiming to be an outsider and non-conformistic. Like some people
>> are fond of telling their friend Jamal "You know I'm bad".
>
> "Jamal"? Elucidate, please.
There was a song by Michael Jackson called "I'm bad", in which reputedly
a lot of people misheard the line "Because I'm bad, come on" as "Because
I'm bad, Jamal". Sorry if that was too obscure.
>>> And honestly, what's it to ya?
>>
>> I think it's an observation and expression of opinion. We're still
>> allowed those, right?
>
> Whenever it's imposing the will of the poster on what others should or
> shouldn't say, I will most certainly object.
Um... Haven't we done this recently? When a poster says "I do not like
people writing things like <foo> and here are my reasons", that is not
imposing the will of one poster on what others should or shouldn't say.
That's expressing an opinion. There's no imposing at all. You are
perfectly free to ignore the opinion of that poster and write <foo> to
your heart's content. You can say you're in the gutter with a naked
Emily Dickinson and claim Buffy is so much trash it could only aspire to
be in the gutter with you.
The only difference is that by telling you, and the rest of the group,
the posters who have expressed an opinion have let you know they
personally do not like it. Whether you care enough for them to alter
your behaviour is entirely up to you. You are entirely free to increase
the kind of things they have expressed a dislike for, should you want to
annoy them, or decrease it should you find their arguments worthwhile or
their respect worth nurturing.
I don't care much for pillow fights and similar, and when they've become
too intrusive for me to ignore, I have objected, at times. That's not
me imposing my will on the people involved. That's me saying "I don't
like this, and here is why."
That's all anyone of us can do to impose our will or preferences on
Usenet.
Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #278991 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 21:35 |
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On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:22:39 -0400, "Arthur Hagen"
<art [at] broomstick.com> jotted down:
>Orjan Westin <nospam [at] cunobaros.com> wrote:
>> Arthur Hagen wrote:
>>> Graycat <rosen.elin [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you think the things you talk about are fine, stop
>>>> placing yourself in this mythical gutter, it's self
>>>> deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
>>>
>>> If you *know* it's self-deprecating, and still your choice, it's
>>> hardly spineless.
Well, it could be interpreted as a way to avoid standing up
for the way you really feel because you're afraid that would
place you a bit too much off centre. I don't think that's
really why people do it - I think it's just ustomary, but
sometimes customs need to be questioned.
>>> And honestly, what's it to ya?
>>
>> I think it's an observation and expression of opinion. We're still
>> allowed those, right?
>
>Whenever it's imposing the will of the poster on what others should or
>shouldn't say, I will most certainly object.
You're free to ignore me completely. I'm saying _I_ don't
like it, you can argue against me, and quite possibly even
change my mind, it's your choise.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #279014 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 22:40 |
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Orjan Westin <nospam [at] cunobaros.com> wrote:
> Arthur Hagen wrote:
>> Orjan Westin <nospam [at] cunobaros.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think it's an observation and expression of opinion. We're still
>>> allowed those, right?
>>
>> Whenever it's imposing the will of the poster on what others should
>> or shouldn't say, I will most certainly object.
>
> Um... Haven't we done this recently? When a poster says "I do not
> like people writing things like <foo> and here are my reasons", that
> is not imposing the will of one poster on what others should or
> shouldn't say.
However, she *didn't* say "I do not like people writing things like <foo>
and here are my reasons". She said:
>>>>> If you think the things you talk about are fine, stop
>>>>> placing yourself in this mythical gutter, it's self
>>>>> deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
> That's expressing an opinion.
No, it's telling people what to do. The imperative gives it away.
Regards,
--
*Art
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #279019 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 23:01 |
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On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:40:06 -0400, "Arthur Hagen"
<art [at] broomstick.com> jotted down:
>Orjan Westin <nospam [at] cunobaros.com> wrote:
>> Um... Haven't we done this recently? When a poster says "I do not
>> like people writing things like <foo> and here are my reasons", that
>> is not imposing the will of one poster on what others should or
>> shouldn't say.
>
>However, she *didn't* say "I do not like people writing things like <foo>
>and here are my reasons". She said:
>
>>>>>> If you think the things you talk about are fine, stop
>>>>>> placing yourself in this mythical gutter, it's self
>>>>>> deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
>
>> That's expressing an opinion.
>
>No, it's telling people what to do. The imperative gives it away.
Allright, then I apologise for my inexact phrasing.
If you think the things you talk about are fine, I think you
should stop placing yourself in this mythical gutter, I
think it's self deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #279034 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 23:35 |
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Torak wrote:
> Orjan Westin wrote:
>>
>> I see your point, though. I don't think that sort of thing is
>> dirty in any way - quite the opposite, actually. A well crafted
>> innuendo can be quite funny, IMO. The problem is the amount of
>> not so well crafted ones. We've been seeing a lot of
>> run-of-the-mill innuendos stamped with "Made in China" on their
>> plastic bottoms.
>
> Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
Beats me, but the silicon kind sell briskly.
--
4th swordswoman of the afpocalypse, AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons,
Bondage-happy predator, Speaker-To-Students, SadoMangoist,
AFPMistress to peachy, 8'FED's AFPDeliciousSnack, AFPFiance to A.
Nevill , Graycat's Guttersnipe
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #279035 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 23:35 |
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Orjan Westin wrote:
> You can say you're in the gutter with a
> naked Emily Dickinson and claim Buffy is so much trash it could
> only aspire to be in the gutter with you.
Buffy and Emily in a gutter together....that's kinda hot.....
--
4th swordswoman of the afpocalypse, AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons,
Bondage-happy predator, Speaker-To-Students, SadoMangoist,
AFPMistress to peachy, 8'FED's AFPDeliciousSnack, AFPFiance to A.
Nevill , Graycat's Guttersnipe
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #279038 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 23:38 |
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in article pp8882tlpp6vf5houstgjvga89p44q7v9s [at] 4ax.com, Graycat at
rosen.elin [at] gmail.com wrote on 05/06/2006 5:36 AM:
>
> There's one thing that's been annoying me above all else in
> the recent "gutter"-threads; the use of that word.
>
> The people who are advocating less flirting and innuendo say
> we should get out of the gutter, and everyone else at most
> talks about being happy in the gutter.
>
> If you think the things you talk about are fine, stop
> placing yourself in this mythical gutter, it's self
> deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
>
> If you think that those "mainstream" sexual values that say
> it shouldn't be talked about, that it's "dirty" or whatever,
> are wrong - don't buy into them.
>
> I have flirted, implied, innuendoed and probably even been
> explicit - or at least explicit-ish here, but I have _never_
> considered myself in "the gutter", nor do I think that of
> anyone else here.
Absolutely! The harmless fun on afp is not in the least dirty and no-one
should be ashamed of it. Quite the opposite in some cases where the jokes
have been particularly good.
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #279039 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 23:39 |
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Anastasia wrote:
> Orjan Westin wrote:
>
>> You can say you're in the gutter with a
>> naked Emily Dickinson and claim Buffy is so much trash it could
>> only aspire to be in the gutter with you.
>
>
> Buffy and Emily in a gutter together....that's kinda hot.....
TTTO Ebony and Ivory
There's Buffy and Emily
In a gutter together, let me see
Oh my gosh that is kinda hot, that's my spot, why not me?
Sorry.
Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #279072 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 00:32 |
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From the Collected Witterings of Graycat, volume 23:
> If you think the things you talk about are fine, stop
> placing yourself in this mythical gutter, it's self
> deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
To be self-deprecating about it, one would have to care. I don't see anyone
claiming to be a gutterdweller who isn't silently suffixing "And? So?"
--
If life gives you lemmings, jump off a cliff.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #279107 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 02:12 |
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"Torak" <perry_awm [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vDWgg.1521$YI3.688 [at] amstwist00...
> Orjan Westin wrote:
>>
>> I see your point, though. I don't think that sort of thing is dirty in
>> any way - quite the opposite, actually. A well crafted innuendo can be
>> quite funny, IMO. The problem is the amount of not so well crafted ones.
>> We've been seeing a lot of run-of-the-mill innuendos stamped with "Made
>> in China" on their plastic bottoms.
>
> Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
In Every Dreamhome A Heartache...
:\
Aggie
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280023 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 05:40 |
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Graycat wrote:
> There's one thing that's been annoying me above all else in
> the recent "gutter"-threads; the use of that word.
>
> The people who are advocating less flirting and innuendo say
> we should get out of the gutter, and everyone else at most
> talks about being happy in the gutter.
>
> If you think the things you talk about are fine, stop
> placing yourself in this mythical gutter, it's self
> deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
>
> If you think that those "mainstream" sexual values that say
> it shouldn't be talked about, that it's "dirty" or whatever,
> are wrong - don't buy into them.
>
> I have flirted, implied, innuendoed and probably even been
> explicit - or at least explicit-ish here, but I have _never_
> considered myself in "the gutter", nor do I think that of
> anyone else here.
What the Kitty Said. Me too.
-Rocky
--
O'Toole's Corollary: Murphy was an optimist.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280024 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 05:40 |
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Graycat wrote:
> If you think the things you talk about are fine, I think you
> should stop placing yourself in this mythical gutter, I
> think it's self deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
>
Well... I think they are fine, yes. I don't say things
intentionally that I don't think are. But I also thing they are
sometimes edgy, way over the line from the standards I was raised with,
and are nothing I'd want my children to read.
I just think that's okay. I've never believed that if something
isn't kid safe it also isn't adult safe.
I believe in sheltering my children, letting them live in the world
without dealing with all the parts of it, and introducing things as they
are ready for them. And my oldest is so very intellectual, she really
hasn't been ready for much in the world of adult interactions and
relationships.
In fact, the same can be said for the adult members of my family. I
don't see any reason to deliberately expose them to things they aren't
going to understand and I'd just have to spend ages attempting to
explain. Why put me or them through it?
All that said, I recognize that how I think and often what I say is
not acceptable to a big chunk of the culture I live in. I am bisexual,
for example, which much of the world finds revolting.
I think it's a defense mechanism to just acknowledge up front that
yes, I do live in a place that Richard will always call the gutter. I
don't want to spent a single moment of my life trying to convince him or
anyone else otherwise - it seems to me to be a case of trying to teach a
pig to whistle.
I find it works better for me personally to instead start from "okay,
so this is who I am, and I'm acknowleding that you find it immoral. (by
calling it gutter) Now what are you going to do with that fact?"
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280030 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 06:00 |
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Orjan Westin wrote:
> So, let's hear what labels people can come up with to describe the
> high-quality innuendos we deserve. A term that encompasses the
> sophistication and wittiness, the clever allusions and cunning lingual
> puns.
There! That was one! I saw it!
-Rocky
--
O'Toole's Corollary: Murphy was an optimist.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280032 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 06:15 |
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Richard Heathfield wrote:
> Orjan Westin said:
>>So, let's hear what labels people can come up with to describe the
>>high-quality innuendos we deserve. A term that encompasses the
>>sophistication and wittiness, the clever allusions and cunning lingual
>>puns.
> That one, right there, was truly dreadful. But it was cunning, and that made
> all the difference.
>
> (Incidentally, I think it was first used by Deep Purple, in - er - "Knocking
> at your Back Door", I believe, from "Perfect Strangers".)
Years ago, during a college ballgame, the band spelled out on the field:
"EAT OUT," and the announcer said some clever bit about cunning
linguists. If I recall correctly, it was mentioned in the early days of
Playboy Magazine, which would place it around 1960, give or take a few
years.
-Rocky
--
O'Toole's Corollary: Murphy was an optimist.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280049 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 09:26 |
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Richard Bos wrote:
> Torak <perry_awm [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Orjan Westin wrote:
>>
>>>I see your point, though. I don't think that sort of thing is dirty in
>>>any way - quite the opposite, actually. A well crafted innuendo can be
>>>quite funny, IMO. The problem is the amount of not so well crafted
>>>ones. We've been seeing a lot of run-of-the-mill innuendos stamped with
>>>"Made in China" on their plastic bottoms.
>>
>>Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
>
>
> To use as a spare when the original has been screwed off?
Or fallen off because somebody pulled the thread?
-Rocky
--
O'Toole's Corollary: Murphy ha tirato il filetto.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280053 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 09:54 |
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On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:58:23 GMT, raltbos [at] xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
>Torak <perry_awm [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
>
>To use as a spare when the original has been screwed off?
That explains a lot of Hollywood.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280069 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 10:26 |
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Anastasia wrote:
> Torak wrote:
>
>>Orjan Westin wrote:
>>
>>>I see your point, though. I don't think that sort of thing is
>>>dirty in any way - quite the opposite, actually. A well crafted
>>>innuendo can be quite funny, IMO. The problem is the amount of
>>>not so well crafted ones. We've been seeing a lot of
>>>run-of-the-mill innuendos stamped with "Made in China" on their
>>>plastic bottoms.
>>
>>Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
>
>
> Beats me, but the silicon kind sell briskly.
I won't ask why.
Or, indeed, how you know that.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280070 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 10:28 |
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Rocky Frisco wrote:
> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>
>> Orjan Westin said:
>
>
>>> So, let's hear what labels people can come up with to describe the
>>> high-quality innuendos we deserve. A term that encompasses the
>>> sophistication and wittiness, the clever allusions and cunning lingual
>>> puns.
>
>
>> That one, right there, was truly dreadful. But it was cunning, and
>> that made all the difference.
>>
>> (Incidentally, I think it was first used by Deep Purple, in - er -
>> "Knocking at your Back Door", I believe, from "Perfect Strangers".)
>
>
> Years ago, during a college ballgame, the band spelled out on the field:
> "EAT OUT," and the announcer said some clever bit about cunning
> linguists. If I recall correctly, it was mentioned in the early days of
> Playboy Magazine, which would place it around 1960, give or take a few
> years.
Speaking of which, Mamma tells me the Playboy Club restaurant in London
used to be rather good, back in the day.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280117 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 15:25 |
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On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 03:40:36 GMT, peachy ashie passion
<exquisitepeach [at] hotmail.com> jotted down:
>Graycat wrote:
>
>> If you think the things you talk about are fine, I think you
>> should stop placing yourself in this mythical gutter, I
>> think it's self deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
>>
>
> I think it's a defense mechanism to just acknowledge up front that
>yes, I do live in a place that Richard will always call the gutter. I
>don't want to spent a single moment of my life trying to convince him or
>anyone else otherwise - it seems to me to be a case of trying to teach a
>pig to whistle.
>
> I find it works better for me personally to instead start from "okay,
>so this is who I am, and I'm acknowleding that you find it immoral. (by
>calling it gutter) Now what are you going to do with that fact?"
I guess I think there's a difference between saying "I
disagree, this isn't the gutter" and saying "I disagree,
we're fine in the gutter" - because I wouldn't like if afp
was really in what I'd call the gutter.[1]
[1] If it was, I wouldn't be here
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280133 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 16:13 |
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Graycat wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 03:40:36 GMT, peachy ashie passion
> <exquisitepeach [at] hotmail.com> jotted down:
>
>
>>Graycat wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If you think the things you talk about are fine, I think you
>>>should stop placing yourself in this mythical gutter, I
>>>think it's self deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
>>>
>>
>
>> I think it's a defense mechanism to just acknowledge up front that
>>yes, I do live in a place that Richard will always call the gutter. I
>>don't want to spent a single moment of my life trying to convince him or
>>anyone else otherwise - it seems to me to be a case of trying to teach a
>>pig to whistle.
>>
>> I find it works better for me personally to instead start from "okay,
>>so this is who I am, and I'm acknowleding that you find it immoral. (by
>>calling it gutter) Now what are you going to do with that fact?"
>
>
> I guess I think there's a difference between saying "I
> disagree, this isn't the gutter" and saying "I disagree,
> we're fine in the gutter" - because I wouldn't like if afp
> was really in what I'd call the gutter.[1]
>
> [1] If it was, I wouldn't be here
>
I see what you are saying.
I just think that starting the argument about whether this is the
gutter is asking someone to change their morals, and that is an argument
I'm not likely to win.
Asking someone what their morals say they need to do about the fact
that I have my own morals and don't intend to change them to suit
another is a whole different issue.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280134 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 16:18 |
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Torak wrote:
> Anastasia wrote:
>> Torak wrote:
>>
>>> Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
>>
>>
>> Beats me, but the silicon kind sell briskly.
>
> I won't ask why.
>
> Or, indeed, how you know that.
That's easy. I made it up. But the background knowledge necessary to do so,
OTOH, might disturb you anyway.
--
4th swordswoman of the afpocalypse, AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons,
Bondage-happy predator, Speaker-To-Students, SadoMangoist,
AFPMistress to peachy, 8'FED's AFPDeliciousSnack, AFPFiance to A.
Nevill , Graycat's Guttersnipe
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280135 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 16:23 |
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On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:13:50 GMT, peachy ashie passion
<exquisitepeach [at] hotmail.com> jotted down:
>Graycat wrote:
>
>> I guess I think there's a difference between saying "I
>> disagree, this isn't the gutter" and saying "I disagree,
>> we're fine in the gutter" - because I wouldn't like if afp
>> was really in what I'd call the gutter.[1]
>>
>> [1] If it was, I wouldn't be here
>>
>
> I see what you are saying.
>
> I just think that starting the argument about whether this is the
>gutter is asking someone to change their morals, and that is an argument
>I'm not likely to win.
Not neccesarily, all you do is say that you don't think this
is the gutter, so it needen's get out of the gutter. They
don't have to agree. The discussion would probably have been
much the same anyway.
> Asking someone what their morals say they need to do about the fact
>that I have my own morals and don't intend to change them to suit
>another is a whole different issue.
Isn't this much the same though - you're still saying your
morals are different than theirs, you're just accepting
their vocabulary.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280138 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 16:39 |
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Graycat wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:13:50 GMT, peachy ashie passion
> <exquisitepeach [at] hotmail.com> jotted down:
>
>
>>Graycat wrote:
>>
>
>
>>>I guess I think there's a difference between saying "I
>>>disagree, this isn't the gutter" and saying "I disagree,
>>>we're fine in the gutter" - because I wouldn't like if afp
>>>was really in what I'd call the gutter.[1]
>>>
>>>[1] If it was, I wouldn't be here
>>>
>>
>> I see what you are saying.
>>
>> I just think that starting the argument about whether this is the
>>gutter is asking someone to change their morals, and that is an argument
>>I'm not likely to win.
>
>
> Not neccesarily, all you do is say that you don't think this
> is the gutter, so it needen's get out of the gutter. They
> don't have to agree. The discussion would probably have been
> much the same anyway.
>
>
>> Asking someone what their morals say they need to do about the fact
>>that I have my own morals and don't intend to change them to suit
>>another is a whole different issue.
>
>
> Isn't this much the same though - you're still saying your
> morals are different than theirs, you're just accepting
> their vocabulary.
>
IME given the initial starting point and human nature, saying "no
this is not the gutter!" leads to nowhere but exclamations of how bad it
really is, how immoral, and that the fact that I can't see how it's the
gutter just shows how depraved I am and that I've lost all discernment
on the matter and that Decent People everywhere agree that such behavior
is beyond the pale, etc.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280142 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 16:53 |
|
Anastasia wrote:
> Torak wrote:
>
>>Anastasia wrote:
>>
>>>Torak wrote:
>>>
>
>
>>>>Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
>>>
>>>
>>>Beats me, but the silicon kind sell briskly.
>>
>>I won't ask why.
>>
>>Or, indeed, how you know that.
>
>
> That's easy. I made it up. But the background knowledge necessary to do so,
> OTOH, might disturb you anyway.
Hey, I've had what, five or six years on AFP now. Probably wouldn't
disturb me that much any more.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280254 ] |
Mi, 07 Juni 2006 00:51 |
|
in article UO6hg.5403$9f2.4753 [at] trnddc04, peachy ashie passion at
exquisitepeach [at] hotmail.com wrote on 05/06/2006 8:40 PM:
> Graycat wrote:
>
>> If you think the things you talk about are fine, I think you
>> should stop placing yourself in this mythical gutter, I
>> think it's self deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
>>
>
> Well... I think they are fine, yes. I don't say things
> intentionally that I don't think are. But I also thing they are
> sometimes edgy, way over the line from the standards I was raised with,
> and are nothing I'd want my children to read.
We didn't censor our children's reading at all, but we did cheat by putting
things we thought they might not be ready for, such as horror stories, on
high shelves and things we thought they might enjoy on lower shelves; we
didn't censor their TV watching or video games either, except by insisting
on what *we* wanted to watch on the family's one TV. Neither of them
smuggled porn magazines into the house, though I have no idea what they read
elsewhere - any more than anyone else knows what their children are reading
or watching away from home. In their teens they had a second TV on which
they watched whatever they wanted to.
When our children were small, there was no Internet. If there had been,
we would have handled it in much the same way as we did RL relationships and
TV - no unsupervised interaction with adults we didn't know, and no TV
without one of us in the room - but without making a big deal out of it and
thus making it forbidden and glamorous.
Both have grown up to be happy, well-adjusted people who enjoyed several
fulfilling relationships each before settling down with their life partners.
The older one has small children, who are also uncensored along the same
lines.
> I just think that's okay. I've never believed that if something
> isn't kid safe it also isn't adult safe.
Quite.
<snip>
>
> All that said, I recognize that how I think and often what I say is
> not acceptable to a big chunk of the culture I live in. I am bisexual,
> for example, which much of the world finds revolting.
Not here on afp we don't, shirley?
>
> I think it's a defense mechanism to just acknowledge up front that
> yes, I do live in a place that Richard will always call the gutter. I
> don't want to spent a single moment of my life trying to convince him or
> anyone else otherwise - it seems to me to be a case of trying to teach a
> pig to whistle.
>
> I find it works better for me personally to instead start from "okay,
> so this is who I am, and I'm acknowleding that you find it immoral. (by
> calling it gutter) Now what are you going to do with that fact?"
I have a sort of lateral view on that. My own life is completely
conventional and unshocking, but that's just what suits me (and my husband,
of course). I feel very strongly that people should do whatever they choose
to do, sexually and otherwise, so long as they don't harm anybody else. I
also feel equally strongly that people should be free to talk about whatever
interests them, without anybody else interfering and trying to censor them.
And I feel even more strongly that people who live lives that other people
might find shocking should not worry about those other people's opinions,
and that those other people should most certainly not try to make the first
set of people feel bad about what they do. One way of life is no better or
worse than another way of life in objective terms, it's just a matter of
what suits any individual.
Mind you, some of the gutter jokes have been really funny.
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280256 ] |
Mi, 07 Juni 2006 00:55 |
|
in article je0b82tur18urqsu5r76fbaervsklva81e [at] 4ax.com, Graycat at
rosen.elin [at] gmail.com wrote on 06/06/2006 6:25 AM:
> On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 03:40:36 GMT, peachy ashie passion
> <exquisitepeach [at] hotmail.com> jotted down:
>
>> Graycat wrote:
>>
>>> If you think the things you talk about are fine, I think you
>>> should stop placing yourself in this mythical gutter, I
>>> think it's self deprecating and looks a bit spineless.
>>>
>>
>
>> I think it's a defense mechanism to just acknowledge up front that
>> yes, I do live in a place that Richard will always call the gutter. I
>> don't want to spent a single moment of my life trying to convince him or
>> anyone else otherwise - it seems to me to be a case of trying to teach a
>> pig to whistle.
>>
>> I find it works better for me personally to instead start from "okay,
>> so this is who I am, and I'm acknowleding that you find it immoral. (by
>> calling it gutter) Now what are you going to do with that fact?"
>
> I guess I think there's a difference between saying "I
> disagree, this isn't the gutter" and saying "I disagree,
> we're fine in the gutter" - because I wouldn't like if afp
> was really in what I'd call the gutter.[1]
>
> [1] If it was, I wouldn't be here
And that is also a really important point. "If thine eye offend the, pluck
it out", which in this case I interpret as "If you don't like what you're
reading, stop reading it".
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
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| Re: [I] Enough with the "gutter" allready [message #280293 ] |
Mi, 07 Juni 2006 03:26 |
|
"Torak" <perry_awm [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BFghg.1613$YI3.1132 [at] amstwist00...
> Anastasia wrote:
> > Torak wrote:
> >
> >>Anastasia wrote:
> >>
> >>>Torak wrote:
> >>>
> >
> >
> >>>>Why would anyone want a plastic bottom?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Beats me, but the silicon kind sell briskly.
> >>
> >>I won't ask why.
> >>
> >>Or, indeed, how you know that.
> >
> >
> > That's easy. I made it up. But the background knowledge necessary to do
so,
> > OTOH, might disturb you anyway.
>
> Hey, I've had what, five or six years on AFP now. Probably wouldn't
> disturb me that much any more.
Careful, Torak. The last time I thought that about Anastasia, she came up
with the concept of "SadoMangoism"! lol
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